Digital Trust Primer and an Introduction to the Trust over IP Foundation
Digital Trust Primer & An Introduction To The Trust Over IP Foundation
Tuesday 1H
Convener John Jordan (Province of British Columbia) & Drummond Reed (Evernym)
Notes-taker(s): Ryo Kajiwara
Tags for the session - technology discussed/ideas considered
- PRESENTATION Link: http://drive.google.com/file/d/1lT7AWLnAr5wmvanq3d9ydNkSkv5YQxgd/view
Discussion notes, key understandings, outstanding questions, observations, and, if appropriate to this discussion: action items, next steps
[9:38] let’s get started
old territory - flashbacks for some
john jordan -- introduce myself, coming to iiw since fall 2017, got into identity around 2007
today: primer with Drummond
drummond -- evernym, DID specification at w3c, linux foundation (hyperledger)
[9:40] let’s wander through time looking at identity & trust broadly
In-Person Credentials break down of trust technology: print. it was expensive, (used to be) hard to forge money is another form of conveyed trust indicate where they come from
three-party model with underlying framework issuer, holder, verifier, governance facility
signatures, ceremonies big part of how we convey trust “wax to fax”
Financial Services (Mastercard) Government (Birth, Death certificates, and so on) person needs to be known to the government in a trustworthy way
The Internet era
Problem: Trust Gap there are only some business models that are successful on the internet: for example, E-Commerce and Online Advertising
New risks chart: growth in insurance frauds
we tried to create “one-stop” services, but were not successful
“the login account” being the problem
The Digital Trust Era
we need to get back to the ceremonies, but be able to do this digitally verifiable credentials model uses the same model as the physical world
Trust over IP Foundation: launching next week
Wax to Fax (to Stacks)
Windley: I call what John has labeled “technical trust” fidelity. And what he calls “governance trust” provenance. See https://www.windley.com/archives/2019/10/fidelity_provenance_and_trust.shtml
- Nicky’s Haiku:
- First Trust People
- Over red bees wax
- Or a Fax
- Over IP Stacks
Trust over IP
- Layer 1: If there is some other party that can interfere with the communication, we need crypto. Interference with communication does not happen in real-world trust.
- comment:
- Layer 0 needs to have an advanced version of Tor (-> privacy at transport)
- Layer 2: How do we create a private communication between two parties? -> DIDComm Peer to Peer protocol
- Layer 3: Credentials. Governed by the community that it is used in.
- Layer 4: Applications. example: Paris Agreement (of global climate change)
Official launch will be 5/5, global session scheduled on 5/7
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9031548 - The Trust over IP Stack
http://github.com/hyperledger/aries-rfcs/tree/master/concepts/0289-toip-stack
questions/discussion
Q: how is the governance of trust over IP foundation going to work?
- The Linux Foundation is working on many projects, and it’s like one of them.
Steering Committee Contributor/Associate level: free, available to everyone. wide open requirement for the foundation was to have it open to everyone If there’s any kind of intellectual property to be discussed, you need to sign a document International participation: we are having participants from all over the world. try to do asynchronous meetings as much as we can, meetings across multiple time zones, ...
Q: What is the scope of the Technical Stack WG?
- Not to create standards at this org. Verifiable Credentials are 1.0 standard at W3C, DID is to be a standard at W3C, DIDcomm at IETF. Identifying the gap with standards and figuring out how to work with standards.
Q: How does Trust Over IP Foundation relate to DIF/W3C?
- There is no such thing on the market that establishes trust that is purely reliant on technology. The policy is based on governance. We have to make decisions at every level of the stack. How can we have governance that is open/transparent/referenceable? Starting from governance, moving into technology. Technology is done in those groups.
Ecosystem trust and trust with blockchain is a problem of different layers. Dependency between layers: how to do security/privacy across all the layers?
Q: Are the slides available?
- Yes, in this document! :)
Q: What are the benefits of being a paid member?
- It’s not that expensive, also depends on the size of your organization. We need a community manager (and the money is going to them)
- Q: q+ to note how difficult this makes it for some companies in the space -- what are thoughts on yet another Foundation to join, strictness in technology stack, etc?
- It’s not clear that you are working on governance only, you’re also working on technology
- Does it not cause yet another fragmentation? Frustration, because it looks like undoing the work to bridge DIF/W3C/IETF… Why not use the existing framework (such as W3C Business Groups)?
- The driver: the tent is just not big enough. Not a technical need, a human need. Some organizations do not do technical development, but we need to involve them into this discussion.
- Why Linux Foundation: to make sure that money was not a requirement. Exactly like a W3C IG. Also, synergy with other projects in LF (such as hyperledger). Open Standards, Open Source, Open Governance.
Q: What kind of standards are going to be standardized in Governance Stack WG?
- No standards but guidelines and best practices.
Q: Who is on the steering committee?
- They will be announced in the live event
There’s going to be another session on Trust over IP Foundation tomorrow
Raw dump of Zoom Chat:
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (09:46 AM) haha, love the "From Wax to Fax"
From John Hopkins to Everyone: (09:46 AM) +1
From Ryo Kajiwara to Everyone: (09:46 AM) =1 +1
From Phil Archer to Everyone: (09:46 AM) That was a bad day..
From Mike Richardson to Everyone: (09:46 AM) God Save the Queen
From Michael Shea to Everyone: (09:46 AM) +1
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (09:46 AM) +1
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (09:46 AM)
From Wax to (technology) Stacks? :P
From Chris Eckl to Everyone: (09:47 AM) UK not England!
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (09:47 AM) Manu, I love it!
From Jan Taylor to Everyone: (09:47 AM) +1 Manu “Wax to tech stacks”
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (09:52 AM) "Low tech wax to high tech stacks"? -- too many syllables. (yes, I'm on a rhymezone.com attempting to extend John's "wax to fax" saying to the tech sector :P)
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (09:52 AM) Wax to fax to stacks?
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (09:53 AM) ooh, I like that.
From Michael Shea to Everyone: (09:53 AM) W2F2T W2F2S
From windley to Everyone: (09:55 AM) I call what John has labeled “technical trust” fidelity. And what he calls “governance trust” provenance. See http://www.windley.com/archives/2019/10/fidelity_provenance_and_trust.shtml
From Nicky Hickman to Everyone: (09:55 AM)
Here's your Haiku Manu and Drummond
Trust
Bees Wax
then fax
over IP Stacks?
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (09:56 AM) haha, love it!
From Nicky Hickman to Everyone: (09:56 AM) :-)
From Laura Jaurequi to Everyone: (09:56 AM) Ha Ha!
From Benedikt Olek to Everyone: (09:57 AM) Can we potentially get rid of the Governance body (previous slide)
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (09:57 AM) Great question, and one we can dive into in the Q&A. Short answer is ANYONE can be a “governance authority”
From Benedikt Olek to Everyone: (09:58 AM) Thanks!
From cam-parra to Everyone: (10:00 AM) Can the steering committee be diverse this time? :)
From Maryam Shahid to Everyone: (10:01 AM) And then following that: how would that look like in an international platform’s space?
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:01 AM) Great questions, we’ll get to both of those
From Kazue Sako to Everyone: (10:02 AM) Can you share with us the slides later? Some letters are too small to see over Zoom window on PC.
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:02 AM) One key point: participation in the Trust over IP Foundation is open to any person or organization anywhere as a Contributor Member at no charge. The only requirement is to agree to the IPR rules so there is no patent trolling.
From Vic Cooper to Everyone: (10:02 AM) Or make your slides full screen
From Ryo Kajiwara to Everyone: (10:02 AM) The URL of the slides is on the notes
From Nathan George to Everyone: (10:03 AM) Sounds like Mike needs to propose a session on privacy at transport We have a lot of ideas on that The protocol should never betray you
From cam-parra to Everyone: (10:04 AM) I always worry that the interest of these foundations are towards developed countries. So diversity in leadership would be key for me to trust an organization
From gihan2 to Everyone: (10:04 AM) that's better, thans
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:05 AM) Cam: Kiva is one of the founders.
From Laura Jaurequi to Everyone: (10:05 AM) Upvoting Nathan’s nomination of Mike!
From Darrell to Everyone: (10:05 AM) @cam-parra - can you help drive that diversity?
From Benedikt Olek to Everyone: (10:05 AM) Is there reading on the “9(?) principles of sovereignty”?
From Kazue Sako to Everyone: (10:05 AM) Thanks, Ryo. I refreshed the screen and got the URL.
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:06 AM) @Benedikt: I think Dave Huseby is going to to a session on that topic
From Benedikt Olek to Everyone: (10:06 AM) Thanks again, Drummond :)
From Nathan George to Everyone: (10:08 AM) Now is as good a time as any to let everyone know that I have started work as Director of Engineering at Kiva leading the Protocol team there. As Cam referenced, we have a big interest in making sure these systems work well for the developing world. If you have an interest in helping, catch one of us on slack or in the gardens.
From cam-parra to Everyone: (10:08 AM) Thank you, Drummond! Again not trying to stir things :) just want to see this succeed
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:08 AM) Wow, Nathan, that’s huge news! Congratulations!!!
From cam-parra to Everyone: (10:09 AM) And I would love to help @Darrell where I can
From rouven to Everyone: (10:09 AM) Congrats Nathan! :)
From Matt Norton to Everyone: (10:09 AM) Way to go Nathan!
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (10:09 AM) Congrats Nathan! :)
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:09 AM) Nathan, I nominate that you and Cam run a session on Kiva and all the good things you are/will be doing there.
From Nathan George to Everyone: (10:10 AM) That is in the next time block breakout C
From cam-parra to Everyone: (10:10 AM) Have a session going on session 2
From AjayJadhav to Everyone: (10:10 AM) Hey Nathan, congratulations.. :)
From Kalyan to Everyone: (10:10 AM) Great news Nathan, heartiest congratulations!
From Jeffrey Aresty to Everyone: (10:11 AM) congratulations, Nathan
From Matt Norton to Everyone: (10:11 AM) Where do we see the most momentum in the stack? Where do we see the least?
From Michael Shea to Everyone: (10:11 AM) congrats Nathan!
From Oliver Terbu to Everyone: (10:12 AM) What is the scope of the “technical stack working groups”?
From Jsearls to Everyone: (10:13 AM) Nathan, this is really wonderful. Congrats!
From AjayJadhav to Everyone: (10:14 AM) Hi Drummond, any information on joining the foundation ?
From Gena Morgan to Everyone: (10:15 AM) How does this foundation relate to DIF?
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (10:15 AM) ... and how does it relate to W3C? Hard to see where the swim lanes are...
From Elias Strehle to Everyone: (10:17 AM) I was just trying to clap, not raise my hand ;-)
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:17 AM) @Ajay Yes, anyone in the session interested in joining, just email me at drummond.reed@evernym.com
From AjayJadhav to Everyone: (10:18 AM) Thanks Drummond
From Oliver Terbu to Everyone: (10:18 AM) Thanks john
From Me to Everyone: (10:19 AM) Elais .. ah .. :)
From Ramnath Krishnamurthi to Everyone: (10:20 AM) congrats Nathan!!
From Me to Everyone: (10:20 AM) My belief is that the existing communities such as W3C have a well understood space in helping discover and define internet standards
From Michael Shea to Everyone: (10:20 AM) Will it be possible to make this deck available later?
From Me to Everyone: (10:21 AM) Deck is available here … http://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1R52XDeRqtPWCCPuNq-e4GNyOe7ckuPKa
From Darrell to Everyone: (10:21 AM) Desk link is in the notes as well. deck*
From rouven to Everyone: (10:21 AM) DIF & ToIP folks had a conversation last week. We agreed to create a joined document to better define scope & collaboration more explicitly. (similar to the effort DIF & W3C has down in Q1)
From Me to Everyone: (10:22 AM) There are few if any places for business people and less technical people to come and make sense of what their problem is with digital trust .. and how to evaluated their optinos Typos sorry
From Phil Archer to Everyone: (10:22 AM) q+ to comment on what Drummond is saying
From Michael Shea to Everyone: (10:23 AM) +1 to John J.
From Kyle Den Hartog to Everyone: (10:23 AM) What’s the expected benefits to being a paying member org (I remember one was steering committee seat, but I was thinking that was top tier) and how are those funds that are raised intended to be spent at this point?
From cam-parra to Everyone: (10:23 AM) +1 for Kyles question
From Me to Everyone: (10:24 AM) One of the first things we will nee at Trust over IP Foundation is a person to help the communities
From Nicky Hickman to Everyone: (10:24 AM) Agree @ John - there are 'bits' missing in terms of business requirements, - would be good to find a way of hooking in existing governance delivered through things like 't's & c's' and security policies - needs to be aligned around business transactions not identity or verification
From Me to Everyone: (10:24 AM) Transparency around WHY a technology is chosen is a key goal
From Me to Everyone: (10:24 AM) And WHAT the impacts of that technology choice means
From Gena Morgan to Everyone: (10:24 AM) nope
From Me to Everyone: (10:25 AM) To the members of the trust community … But those choices are for each community to make
From Darrell to Everyone: (10:28 AM) @Gena - what is your “nope” aimed at? Lots of questions/comments flying.
From gihan2 to Everyone: (10:28 AM) are this session's slides available?
From Gena Morgan to Everyone: (10:28 AM) sorry - to Phil
From Jesse Empey to Everyone: (10:28 AM) Deck is available here … http://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1R52XDeRqtPWCCPuNq-e4GNyOe7ckuPKa
From Matt Norton to Everyone: (10:28 AM) sorry! Thought the annotations were just on my screen haha
From Gena Morgan to Everyone: (10:29 AM) @ Darrell - sorry to Phil
From gihan2 to Everyone: (10:29 AM) thanks
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (10:30 AM) q+ to note how difficult this makes it for some companies in the space -- what are thoughts on yet another Foundation to join, strictness in technology stack, etc?
From Ryo Kajiwara to Everyone: (10:30 AM) I'm missing a lot of things on the notes; please feel free to add anything that I'm missing!
From Siva Kannan to Everyone: (10:31 AM) Related to Manu’s Question, thoughts on another foundation(not on the tech side): but, how will the foundation help with the various governance frameworks - are they a set of standards for governance?
From Kyle Den Hartog to Everyone: (10:32 AM) Thanks @John for discussing that. Additionally, who are the current steering committee members at this point?
From Elias Strehle to Everyone: (10:33 AM) Could you help me understand what kind of "trust" the Trust over IP Foundation wants to ensure? Is your focus credible identity, so I can be sure that everybody on the internet is who say they are? Or also about trust that the other party does not lie/will not cheat?
From Drummond Reed to Everyone: (10:34 AM) @Elias - the “trust” in Trust over IP is the trust any two parties decide they need in a particular context. So it can be about all of those things and others.
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (10:38 AM) q+ to separate governance from tech.
From rouven to Everyone: (10:38 AM) +1 manu :) I guess the confusion might come from this foundation being in a tech organization like the Linux Foundation
From Manu Sporny to Everyone: (10:39 AM) There is that, too :)
From rouven to Everyone: (10:39 AM) *being part of
From Me to Everyone: (10:40 AM) Linux Foundation has over 200 projects .. quite a number that are not purely technology focused
From Nathan George to Everyone: (10:42 AM) Or perhaps a more cynical response: Unfortunately all the SDOs are in a bit of an arms race to do open source work and conversely open source foundations are trying to branch out into standards and community-type groups (for example see IEEE SA Open Source). We don’t want to see the community caught up in their ambitions, but if we can get resources to make things go faster we should. (Kantara and others might have ways to help too.)
From Me to Everyone: (10:43 AM) Folks … as we come to a close on this session I want to thank you all for taking the time to listen and participate. We would love to hear from you. Hope you have a great IIW and be well.
From Nathan George to Everyone: (10:43 AM) John++. Thanks for sharing all this!
From Ramnath Krishnamurthi to Everyone: (10:43 AM) Thanks John and team for sharing the deck
From windley to Everyone: (10:43 AM) Thanks John
From Michael Shea to Everyone: (10:43 AM) Thanks John & Drummond!
From Kyle Den Hartog to Everyone: (10:43 AM) Thanks John for covering this
From Elias Strehle to Everyone: (10:44 AM) Thank you!
From Me to Everyone: (10:44 AM) And thanks to the note taker who’s name I missed unfortunately.
From AjayJadhav to Everyone: (10:44 AM) Thanks John
