2J/ Rolling Back Surveillance Capitalism. Part 1: Describe the future (in detail)
Rolling Back Surveillance Capitalism, Part 1: Describe the future (in detail)
Tuesday 2J
Convener: Johannes Ernst
Notes-taker(s):
Discussion notes, key understandings, outstanding questions, observations, and, if appropriate to this discussion: action items, next steps:
It’s time to do something.
Example: Weather site / app. Should have an alternative funding model. E.g. allow the customer to enter their credit card to pay instead of surveilling ads.
Somebody like Apple could facilitate micro payments to sites instead of them doing ads. Could be the broadband provider. Needs a clearance function like ASCAP.
Data becomes data + its attributes (rights)
Market to rights to data.
Coop form. Trade association for humans.
Information should degrade over time.
Doesn’t think it can be done with regulatory intervention
Should be able to declare one’s interests. Could be point-to-point. Could be broadcast.
What *assumptions* are we making about surveillance capitalism? such as data means something, data can represent you, your data is a model of you?
What does the future look like? Whose future matters? How do we make a value judgement?
Mandatory, standardised data portability (such as is already mandated in GDPR but not as yet being delivered on). More on how we make that happen when we get to the solutions session.
Digital divide - those who have value in their data and get something for free if they want and can trade their privacy Vs those who have no value in their ad data as no disposable income and have no choice - is that fair ?
Personal Data Logistics (PDL) = mobility, data sharing, data portability, data sharing ? difference by rights (controls); right data, right time, right place, right basis (‘right’ is defined by the individual, but recognises that many data attributes are co-managed; e.g. my bank balance).
People have rights to their digital identity, their data.
Have highly standardized contracts that govern the relationship.
Ability to monetize your intent.
Have a digital self. (digital twin) E.g. physical box that has all your info, or hosted by trusted intermediary.
Has all relationships with vendors etc.
We all already have digital twins; they are just run by GAFA. (they have a collection of data but the model does not present or represent you)
Need to change the rules, so that harvesting the data is not worth: have “purpose-based services”. Article 5 in GDPR sets out such rules ( they call them principles but they are ideas or values)
Able to answer CCPA notices in bulk.
Meaningful service providers and purpose based services can lead us to the world where we don’t need apps or websites but with your digital you can figure out where to go and what to do to achieve a specific goal. Without brokers and companies which just do the business to harvest data. We need to change the rules in a way that it is not profitable to aggregate data.
Regulation has made certain behaviors illegal
Higher fidelity data is much more appealing to “consumers” of personal data, so worse data is far less appealing to acquire. Might go out of business?
Criminalize the following:
•Surreptitious user/group profiling. ( that rules out all governments)
•Attention optimized information delivery.
•Algorithmic manipulation of biological processes against user consent or user interests. (however what happens when you change your diet/ nutrition and that means you improve your health/ value to society/ costs to an economy)
Data as Body
Emerging work around "Data As Body"
https://internetdemocracy.in/2020/04/data-as-body/ <- Video...watch
https://internetdemocracy.in/reports/when-our-bodies-become-data/
https://harvardlawreview.org/2013/05/what-privacy-is-for/
https://internetdemocracy.in/reports/data-sovereignty-of-whom/
https://datagovernance.org/files/research/IDP_-_Data_sovereignty_-_Paper_3.pdf
Who provides that piece software that holds your data / preferences?
Better governance models for humanity. YES PLEASE :)
Vishal: We (who is we) need disposable identities. We have them already ….
Zoom Chat
From Scott David To Everyone: Industry hasn’t felt need to change.
From Alexis Falquier To Everyone: This call is being recorded yes?
From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone: Do you want to record this session...Ok; if we want good notes folks need to chime in and do that
From Tony Fish to Everyone: what *assumptions* are we making about surveillance capatilism? such as data means something, data can represent you, your data is a model of you?
From Sam Goto to Everyone: anyone has the link to the doc?
From Tony Fish to Everyone: https://qiqochat.com/breakout/32/iiw31
From Sam Goto: ah, thanks!
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: Surveillance implies unilateral action by the observer.
From Tony Fish to Everyone: What does the future look like? Whose future matters? How do we make a value judgement?
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: they force you into it through consolidation
From Tony Fish to Everyone: Digital divide - those who have value in their data and get something for free if they want and can trade their privacy Vs those who have no value in their ad data as no disposable income and have no choice - is that fair ?
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: We have in the past recognized that some information should be publicly available. Arguably weather is a public safety issue and should be provided without a need for identity at all. If we drill down it an example that is more relational (one that requires identity) it may help.
From alexwykoff to Everyone: Doesn’t Brave already do the microtransactions to publishers though? Is the differentiator a preference to stay in fiat?
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: To me micro payments turn into the same concept of pay to play
From Tony Fish to Everyone: +1 @chris buchanan - health data for the common good, your data helps indirectly those who sell to the health service services and products.
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Q = comment on trust/communication layer between provider/beneficiary leveraged by beneficiary granular controls in relationship profile. Matrix of factors filters most wanted contacts.
From Tony Fish to Everyone: +1 @scott
From Robert (Human Colossus) to Everyone: Ritghs sounds right!
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: In this future state, i’d like to see mandatory, standardised data portability so that users of any internet service can instantly request and get a copy of their service use and other related data via a button/ standard engagement model.
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: +1 to portability too Iain!
From Tony Fish to Everyone: @iain data mobility, data sharing, data portability, data sharing ? is there any difference do they have different rights ?
From Robert (Human Colossus) to Everyone: I would slightly change Ian comment - and would say that I would like to see is that nobody copy my data rather they have right to access it, where any time I can revoke this access
From Eric Weber to Everyone: There should be standards for the payments, so you don’t have Apple facilitating micro payments, but people choosing between 100 ways of transferring some kind of value to the service provide. I set my rules, may be agree to pay a few sense for using a website and the payment happens in the background automatically.
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: No difference between portability and mobility other than choice of jargon. The underlying and much bigger point is around personal data logistics - how do I, the service user and service provider ensures that the right data goes to and from the right place at the right time; and the wrong data does not. So i’d call that personal data logistics (optimisation).
From Tony Fish to Everyone: "personal data logistics" PDL
From Scott David to Everyone: Fractal policy has “scale independent elements” which is helpful for scale-free controls
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: Robert - to your point above, it is key to understand that I am not the master data manager of all data about me. For example, my bank is the master data manager as regards my bank balance. We both co-manage it, but I only have read and share access; not write.
From Scott David to Everyone: Dunbar’s number is about 120 right?
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: 150
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: yes it is Scott
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: look it up :)
From Scott David to Everyone: That means I can now have 30 more friends. Will you all be my friends!? +1 to Marc
From Tony Fish to Everyone: Surveillance Capitalism assumes data = behaviour and that a data model of you is a good representation of you. Is this an assumption that stands up to testing ?
From Eric Weber to Everyone: if you can undo your friends, you can choose 150 every day
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Local Is My #1!
From Tony Fish to Everyone: digital self or digital twin ?
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: 27 TB QNAP
From Tony Fish to Everyone: +1
From Scott David to Everyone: Digital self can be spread across the world IF reliable system. Steven Wright said: “I have the largest seashell collection in the world - I keep it on beaches around the earth.”
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Some clouded and rolled to other drives too...
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: digital twin @Tony. That term is now well understood in corporate world.
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Ya, your stuff is quite kool Johannes!
From Scott David to Everyone: The Mirror model seems more realistic
From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone: just a note if you want your comments in chat in the notes…please move them over. It doesn’t seem to be easy to save the chat.
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: I could not open the session document for some reason.
From Scott David to Everyone: I couldn’t either
From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone: You have to click on the TAB Session 2J
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Yes, we must walk in "the world" of transit toward values and wants. We are seen indeed. Can we grind the optics a bit better tho!?
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: We already have digital twins (in fact many of them, octuplets or more); problem is we don’t run them, the surveillance capitalists do.
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: We want to walk in a civilized space, not the wilder-lands. Civilization please!
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: I also don’t agree that we have rights in the physical world that we don’t have in the digital world with respect to privacy. The issue isn’t privacy rights but the equivalencies made regarding the sameness of the mediums.
From skyberg to Everyone: Compliance is a function of liability
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: @skyberg & liability is a function of standing.
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: +1 @skyberg!
From Tony Fish to Everyone: compliance is a function of law, regulation. Liabilities rest with the directors and their insurance policy
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: Standing is a function of injury.
From Tony Fish to Everyone: +1 chris
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: Have to monetize the data and give it a value
From skyberg to Everyone: Amazon promised me they only use my data to improve my service!
From Tony Fish to Everyone: is a promise a contract ?
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: @skyberg… and so you were not harmed but helped!
From skyberg to Everyone: That was Scott David
From Scott David to Everyone: Market/bidding system. Fiduciary type obligations for agent to avoid conflict of interest 4th party type system. Like in Real Estate deals - Both sellers and buyers have agents - parity.
From Eric Weber to Everyone: you might want to add a data escrow account
From Scott David to Everyone: Bundling is a big deal now for information services. Unbundling will help to disambiguate rights
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: That's what I'm talking about Marc. The HiFi Trust. At scle would be great!
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: Only regulation can step in there. Uber doesn't need to know _everything_ about you to provide a better service, better position its fleet etc etc
From Scott David to Everyone: Data escrow makes lots of sense. In fact, we developed a Community Distributed Data Escrow for disaster response/refugees, etc. It is like a eBay/UBER for data - Data stays where it is, but is escrowed by “duties” moving to the data.
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Limited HiFi too toVittorio's point.
From Sam Goto to Everyone: right
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: technology will always outpace our right to privacy .
From Sam Goto to Everyone: if uber got a directed identifier, it wouldn't be able to export it
From Tony Fish to Everyone: regulation is the answer when your principles are wrong, your risk framework is broken and governance has no down side implications
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: Any service you use with any regularity can track you regardless of the identifiers infrastructure. Weak features are enough for ML to extract identification with the data model is big enough
From Scott David to Everyone: No one knows who you are really. Perhaps we should focus on gradients of information entropy associated with identity attributes. Set gradient as appropriate for interaction. Gradients are Lagrangian Coherent Structures that stand still (like lenticular clouds) as the interaction winds blow past.
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: and Uber data cannot be obtained anywhere else, only Uber has your ride data
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Well put Marc - Guessing v Knowing...
From Sam Goto to Everyone: that's a good distinction indeed
From Tony Fish to Everyone: +1 scott - I don't know who I am
From Scott David to Everyone: +1 to Chris
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: Guessing in the MLworld can lead to more accurate knowledge about yourself that you think you yourself know
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: "That you make lists, not what's om them. That we share, not what we share." Zubboff not verbatim
From Scott David to Everyone: Like a buddhist - If you want to know yourself, observe what you actually do, rather than what you think are your motivations.
From Tony Fish to Everyone: is there more volume of money and margin in guessing than knowing?
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: +10 to what Marc said about using ML and Big Data for the individual
From Tony Fish to Everyone: @scott unless your emotional literacy is not in your control such as diet and illness
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: I believe people want to truths about themselves into a space of services if they aren't predated. Pull the teeth of skimmed-prediction pushed nudging, etc...
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: again, monetize data. when corporations have to pay to use it, they stop using it
From skyberg to Everyone: +1 Hunter. And reduced subscription because you are forced to disclose how you use the data results in paying to use it. I know there’s a WIT event today also. Bad timing, cuz I know of some folks that aren’t here due to the conflict.
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: Privacy is not about property. Soldal v. Cook County (1992)
From skyberg to Everyone: There is zero altruism in capitalism.
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: The privacies of life must be protected against arbitrary power. Carpenter v. US (2017)
From Marc Davis to Everyone: personal data is an extension of the body, so the issue is about control, rather than ownership per se.
From Jacob Siebach to Everyone: I disagree that there is no altruism in true Capitalism. Data shows that the greatest givers to charity, before government involvement, are individuals.
From Tony Fish to Everyone: +1 scott shareholder don't own companies - they (the company) is owned by itself. We created something that does not exist without a common belief (yuri)
From Iain Henderson to Everyone: Genuine co-management of data will be the steady state for many important types of data. There are some data types I can manage for myself (e.g. intentions) as I generate them. For other types they are necessarily and rightly co-managed (bank balance, Covid status in NHS patient record). So in many cases we are talking about ‘Our Data’ not ‘My Data’.
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: corporations are the greatest threats to humanity
From Jacob Siebach to Everyone: Corporations that do not act in a moral way are a great threat, but not all.
From Tony Fish to Everyone: @iain surly "data"
From Eric Weber to Everyone: Your money can be on 10 bank accounts, so the bank only has a fractional view. Only you know you total balance.
From Marc Davis to Everyone: @Ian agree. most personal data has joint rights.
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: Sea captains lost their sovereignty with the invention of the radio.
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: They only operate in a way to make money in that fact they have no morality
From Chris Buchanan to Everyone: Corporate altruism is still an optimization of revenue which is engendered by an externality of tax law and social norms.
From Scott David to Everyone: Start at the beginning
From Tony Fish to Everyone: @roundtable - the pure shareholder return of the 80's is dead, exist to create a sustainable eco-system +10000000000 doc
From Scott David to Everyone: Yes, but now the time has come
From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone: Please put JEMS from the chat INTO the document
you can not cut and paste the chat. you literally have to type them.
From skyberg to Everyone: Morality in corporations is imposed. That’s not a judgement - just a fact that we need to leverage in order to drive corps to a more moral position.
From Scott David to Everyone: Time to use your miles for the wonderful items in the “SkyMall” magazine
From Tony Fish to Everyone: we have agency, power and influence ….
From Scott David to Everyone: WE is the operative word. Communities of interest can cohere and have amplified voice. Vectors of economics, politics, markets all have channels for group action.
From Jacob Siebach to Everyone: You cannot legislate morality--Samuel Adams. We can create a culture that promotes corporations acting in moral ways, but the government can only punish wrong, not ensure right.
From Hunter Cain to Everyone: I think this is extremely important to talk about, when corporations are only focused on profit and that profit is obtained by your data, how do you defend yourself?
From Scott David to Everyone: +1 to Jacob
From Tony Fish to Everyone: is our rear view focus on finance and creating models from them as a predictor of the future a framing that trips us up with data. we assume that data will model our future.
From Scott David to Everyone: +1 to Tony. We use gaussian (normal) distributions to predict the future in complex systems that display non-linear behaviors
From Eric Weber to Everyone: may be he did not pay his subscriptions
From Vittorio Bertocci to Everyone: :P
From Scott David to Everyone: The “linguistic turn” of interoperability
From Tony Fish to Everyone: as a community we should talk about the complexity and then compress it into a linear narrative which allows us to explain where we are going
From Scott David to Everyone: “Place cells” in the brain are freaking out!; Law is artifact of philosophy. Enforceable stories about thinking and “self.”
From Tony Fish to Everyone: @scott - watch out for those bacteria
From Zakir Suleman to Everyone: ^ I’ll add: a couple of very particular European conception of “self”
From Scott David to Everyone: This is not a pipe!
From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone: before you push ‘send’ on a message in here - cut and paste it into the notes… too. :)
From Scott David to Everyone: I cannot access the notes. I tried.
From Robert (Human Colossus) to Everyone: the chat is stored and put in the notes later on so need for that
From Doc Searls to Everyone: "Enforceable stories!" Yes! About stories: https://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/2019/07/23/where-journalism-fails/
From Sam Goto to Everyone: +1 from vishal
From Scott David to Everyone: On “enforceable stories” let’s discuss 4 steps of institution construction later. Practices to best practices to standards to institutions. That process organically creates legislative, judicial and executive functions that characterize ALL governance systems.
From Sam Goto to Everyone: "phone-home" and "correlation", i like the wording
From Tony Fish to Everyone: @kaliya *phone home * IIW 1?
From Scott David to Everyone: We should not feel bad about these being perennial human challenges in society - Anaxamander (sp?) and Epicurus/Lucretius struggled with the same questions of individual/group. Human sapiens sapiens are about to add a new “sapiens”, e.g., those who “know that they know that they know”
From Tony Fish to Everyone: +1 @scott
From Scott David to Everyone: +1 Jeff. Human operating system; Morphological computing at least; Social computing
From Tony Fish to Everyone: "human operating system" is an abstraction as the humans system runs on chemistry which is the OS
From Scott David to Everyone: Maybe institutions are meaning making machines. Humans interacting with institutions give and get meaning. Like a reaction vessel for converting data into information that can inform future interactions for both parties
From Bill Wendel1 to Everyone: Doc asked, “How can we have better signaling about us rather have {players in the surveillance capitalism marketplace] guess about us all the time? A post-surveillance capitalism real estate ecosystem needs to (1) create IntentCasting tools — #Intend2Buyer and #Intend2Sell, and (2) move past the assumption that homebuyers & sellers will use a one-size fits all buyer or listing agents. “Autonomous homebuyers” (a word Realtors made up) need an OPEN #HousingID that enables them to interact P2P. That would empower consumers to save BILLIONS of dollars annually. After three decades, that Holy Grail now seems attainable because of a massive, $50B class action lawsuit against the real estate industry, see recent article in NYTimes: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/your-money/real-estate-commissions-lawsuit.html The suit not only threatens to restructure Realtor compensation but reimagine, “What would the real estate ecosystem look like if the MLS did not exist?” More specifically, if the Realtor-controlled Multiple Listing Services did not silo or worse, intentionally HIDE listing data with “pocket listings,” how can homebuyers and sellers interact using DIY IntentCasts?
From Sam Goto to Everyone: oh vishal
From Bill Wendel1 to Everyone: This reVRM-Minifesto is now a decade old but has never been more timely because the pandemic has cause more than 1 in 5 people to move or think about moving in the next 6 months: http://realestatecafe.com/2010812idea-starter-what-if-homebuyers-sellers-managed-their-own-da-html/
From Sam Goto to Everyone: "disposable identities"
From Scott David to Everyone: +1 to Bill. Did Zillow help?
From Jeff Orgel to Everyone: Dissolving IDs, yes. Like in real world. When we walk out we vanish - mostly. Like a random store experience...
From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone: nope
From Tony Fish to Everyone: have added them into the doc
From Doc Searls to Everyone: that's a bummer.
From Kaliya Identity Woman to Everyone: I don’t know what they did you can’t save the chat or at least I couldn’t you can screen shot them?
From Tony Fish to Everyone: @kaliya - done
From Doc Searls to Everyone: screen shot is way too hard, especially when the whole chat is 10 feet long.
