15F/ Ban Surveillance Capitalism / Chris H.
Session 14F
End Surveillance Capitalism
Session Convener: Chris Heuer
Notes-taker(s): Chris Heuer
Tags / links to resources / technology discussed, related to this session:
# endsurveillancecapitalism
Discussion notes, key understandings, outstanding questions, observations, and, if appropriate to this discussion: action items, next steps:
Session Audio/Transcript: https://otter.ai/u/2fBzzFIuVETAhLqhcgeMNB8egGs
Submit a Change.org Draft Petition for Consideration below or if you’d prefer, using this simple form https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScMV21u7lKLILV_LJqDJtzPoKTrhCfb-PE80nPzJVaNSjRUtA/viewform
Conversation with Clive Smith on Movements and his experience/thoughts on how to move them… https://otter.ai/u/x13XEmqSJFgLVHsSPvpGeTm8Bp0
ESC - End Surveillance Capitalism
CHANGE.ORG
- Submission 1: End Surveillance Capitalism: People aren’t just being exploited for exploitative corporate profits, they, and our whole society are being harmed. It’s time to end the efforts to make trillions of dollars of profit off of our data, our rights, and our very lives.
- An initiative of the Customer Commons and the Internet Identity Workshop.
- Submission 3:????
- Submission 4:????
- Submission 5:????
- Submission 6:????
- Submission 7:????
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RAW TRANSCRIPT
Unknown Speaker 0:00
And in particular platforms based on their expressed a little bit of correlation concern, I guess I'd call it. And so I believe that that thing is not necessarily active per se or hasn't signaled its intentions per se. I know there was another platform being looked at possibly, or I should say, has there been a decision on how this group is going to be?
Unknown Speaker 0:20
Well, all that discussion is happening on that platform you're not on?
Unknown Speaker 0:24
Okay.
Unknown Speaker 0:26
We're talking about other platforms to be on. Okay.
Chris Heuer 0:29
No decisions have been made. No decisions have been made. We're still ad hoc figuring out
Unknown Speaker 0:35
the signal grid is in play.
Chris Heuer 0:38
Yeah, that's where right now the conversations
Unknown Speaker 0:41
are away to see if my if I'm in that group at this time officially was a way to extract or not that I'm, you know, I just don't I'm not going to have a function in that space on that but I need the presence and if at that level.
Chris Heuer 0:57
But if you're not, well, you're not using signal right. So you shouldn't be in here. I would think I think it was a photograph. Numbers. I don't know Can that be removed from a photograph with all the numbers I hadn't seen that
Unknown Speaker 1:13
picture of the list to somebody else to start wondering where that one was?
Unknown Speaker 1:16
That list that was made online paper on Monday, was photographed and then
Unknown Speaker 1:22
Where'd that go? Doc? In me
Chris Heuer 1:28
but I don't nobody has nobody else. And I don't see you on here although unless you're under some other pseudonym. So
Unknown Speaker 1:38
but not, not got not everybody's got to do
Unknown Speaker 1:47
it. Let me and my thank you very much for that. And I just want to say I completely respect everything about what's going on here. I am angling to be a little more of like a person, less known maybe in that I don't think there's just someone who needs to function at a level outside of something. I would be qualified if this like a weird Gopher, if you need me.
Chris Heuer 2:14
Thank you so very much. And we got to you know, we have to consider all the group dynamics and everything in picking the technology so yeah, that's what I was actually gonna ask. I was gonna start with an update that I was gonna ask. All right, thanks, everyone for coming in. You know, I had a really interesting discussion with Clive Smith this morning. I know you know him and you know, Clive, or every quarter on this. Yeah, you can. I'm record I'm recording again to fill the notes because it's just the best notes is a transcript. Oh, okay. So people. He's here from South Africa. He actually was
Unknown Speaker 2:56
2020 News tech. Got it? Yep.
Chris Heuer 2:59
And so he was,
Unknown Speaker 3:01
I met the other guy.
Chris Heuer 3:05
Another guy, but he was he was active in the apartheid, anti apartheid movement and getting it there. And so he's sharing some kind of lessons around it and I don't know that I can represent everything well. You're honest. Could you summarize or No, you didn't get it all. Okay. Yeah. It really, really just insightful stuff in terms of about trying to find the positive language and concerns about what it would take to explain surveillance capitalism to a lot of people who aren't on the inside. Because it seems like bad capitalism. And that message never goes over very well, in terms of making it happen. Now, there's a moment in time where that message needs to be the message, perhaps and I don't I don't agree with that per se. Because again, even when looking at coops, it's a capitalistic system that allows that Co Op to operate. It's just we govern it in such a way that we're thinking of each other and that we get value out for the value we put in and, you know, it's structured for us instead of for an entity to exist and persist beyond us.
Unknown Speaker 4:09
And I've always had an organization that I've run I've always had a simple rule, which is that you never get to say no, the only thing you get to say is here's a better idea. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 4:19
so just contact Barry was the call. Oh, she's on, Mary. Hi, Mary. Okay, nevermind. Go ahead.
Unknown Speaker 4:25
And in this context, there will be 5000 people who will say that whatever term we find is the wrong term. They needed to suggest something better. They get made me the mic. Okay, so let's focus on that one. Otherwise, we are the rathole before we get started.
Chris Heuer 4:39
Yeah, and I forget it was like he had something like take back I've got to pull up the transcript and see what I can play with. But it was like take back my ID, you know, some more just positive affirmative actions. The other things that we talked about was digital rights, and how that could be possibly it and more importantly on that, that I had forgotten about, was that the connection to the UN Human Rights charter, and what's been promoted broadly and the sustainability goals and all that other stuff. So they're, you know what we're talking about.
Unknown Speaker 5:12
Here this, right, so, are we sort of tissue rejecting and venting?
Chris Heuer 5:17
No, not necessarily. I'm sorry. Thank you very much. No, I'm presenting and reflecting on this conversation and trying to input necessity with it with everyone here. I mean, I'm not in charge. I just worked here.
Unknown Speaker 5:32
Conversation on the way in this morning about this doc and I did this big objection of course, it's it's too many syllables.
Chris Heuer 5:39
And it doesn't spell like I mean, I'm questioning myself when I spelt surveillance writing it on the board. I mean, I remember V i ll, but like, you know,
Unknown Speaker 5:49
two words together or too many syllables are the one the two together,
Chris Heuer 5:52
sir, they went cast
Unknown Speaker 5:59
finish the conversation. Yes, please. Which was so you know, we also invited Bob Hoffman, who couldn't come but he's the guy that wrote the book called ad scam. And his thing is the last three pages of the book is this is what he recommends is ban
Unknown Speaker 6:17
tracking, just been tracking just
Unknown Speaker 6:19
bass has just been addressed. So then doc, thought that maybe stop tracking would be better and it's actually goes way back to do not track which was a really good idea like 20 years ago, but didn't never get implemented because the advertising industry pushed back so maybe it's around tracking
Chris Heuer 6:36
Well, what I was gonna say is we have a chance to do some new words. And what I would just add to that is stop tracking us because that creates a collective on top of that. I'm sorry, your hand up and he went to the board. So please,
Unknown Speaker 6:52
do this a bit more structured than me doing waste because right now, we are all about this. Yes. Can we make an agenda are we trying to accomplish and then figure out what the what the possible points are that we want to deal with today, but not I'm suggesting we doing today one
Unknown Speaker 7:07
phrase I didn't want
Unknown Speaker 7:11
to write I'm going to list all the things that people say we have to do something about or discuss, but it doesn't mean you have to do them right now. Right? I'd like to list of all the things that we want to accomplish today. Well, once we have this desk, then we have in the 40 minutes that we have less than the session we can figure out what we actually gonna do. Does that make some sense?
Chris Heuer 7:30
What I'd really like to do because I, again, bias for action and the need to do something coming out of this is to is to get up a very simple statement on change.org on a petition and started asking people out of this community to design it and just start from there and
Unknown Speaker 7:48
you want to accomplish a simple statement out of this media
Chris Heuer 7:51
out of this. What else
Unknown Speaker 7:53
do you want a tagline to?
Unknown Speaker 7:56
Well, well, the phrase to organize under you know, like, what is the Black Lives Matter of this? What is the this Occupy Wall Street of this? And that could be too because like Occupy Wall Street also as we are the 99% You know, I mean, there are things so I don't think surveillance capitalism. Totally wrong, but it could be maybe it's the subhead and we stopped tracking us
Unknown Speaker 8:23
today in this meeting where that is,
Chris Heuer 8:25
so what I would also like to say, I want to have this because what we need to do is not necessarily the one that's going to rule them all today. We need to do something that we can do to make an action out of here because writing that change that submitting the change that org petition and circulating it tomorrow to everyone who's here is really the top objective in my mind is is there a disagreement with that? Or is there anything else somebody would like to do? And I'm sorry, let me just ask that and I know you're up next. Or just,
Unknown Speaker 8:56
I have I have a little bit of a disagreement and it's like, I do I am bias for action. But I want to make sure that that change.org is really exactly what we want to say and I'm not 100% sure that that can happen in this moment. I read your thing and I was like immediately wanting to start editing it. I want to make sure we we know
Unknown Speaker 9:19
so your point is that that particular subject is not really decided today, that well
Unknown Speaker 9:24
document, that document might not be mature enough. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 9:29
I mean, because I think we can throw a lot of resources at getting people to sign it, but we want to make sure it's actually what we want, say in a way that not only is just what we want to say but that it will attract Absolutely because that's that's the thing. It has to have resonance, big resonance and so on. So can we agree maybe I'm I just feel like I'm not strong enough as a writer to do that in
Unknown Speaker 9:52
one language. Space we're having we're actually talking about how to even capture attention without offending or freaking people out. So with that, banned surveillance capitalism or however you want to put it, there are a ton of words there. I think, like when you guys were talking about just stop tracking. I was thinking that's not gonna work because that just goes to it doesn't it doesn't resonate as a human action that often but as soon as you said stop, us Yeah, completely snapped in. I agree. So that might be like the banner message, but the larger thing, like you could say stop surveillance, and then smaller words. Under that capitalism or a larger words in a different script so that you don't stop surveillance is probably more heavy hitting than stop tracking and surveillance.
Chris Heuer 10:41
Hola Hola. We're still trying to get the stuff together instead of debate the word so
Unknown Speaker 10:45
you are a crowd of cats. Okay. Yeah, here's the question. So here's, here's the question at the meta question. Usually at IW. We get together and we talk about something and the objective is to be all understand something better afterwards. Yes, this is not this kind of meeting. This is an action oriented meeting. In other words, there is no goal of everybody being heard in is to make sure that they are being you know, that they understand the real part of it. The goal is to come up with something makes a difference. That's at least
Unknown Speaker 11:16
correct. Thank you. For the tonality of that. I like what's the field in the room I think shaping here
Chris Heuer 11:22
okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Unknown Speaker 11:25
So I really think on this change.org document. If we get something here, can we put it in the notes so people can get it? You can put we can submit it like Yeah, I
Unknown Speaker 11:37
know where a place where we should iterate what it is in order to go forward with it. Because the way the reason I'm talking about wanting it to be perfect, are very, very good. Very
Unknown Speaker 11:53
good to see this one. idea so much better now because
Chris Heuer 12:01
well, at least the carbs are gone.
Unknown Speaker 12:11
If we have 45 minutes to make a working meeting, there's a hive mind out there that will look at it. Yeah, we get that feedback and then we can right away. Okay, and that will be at the FBI in that they've already done the work. So they're gonna sign it as soon as we submit it back to them to sign off on it.
Chris Heuer 12:24
Yeah. And that's where I tried, but I guess I didn't issue strong enough instructions because, you know, Kobe didn't know where it was and the documents wasn't clear, but I was hoping that action requests from yesterday that we had was everyone go in and write a proposal for what that would be. And mine was the only one in there still. So and I understand I didn't get to do any work. When I got home. I had drinks with my friends. That's kind of what it is. But I got one more actually on top of this. Stop tracking us now. Stun big tech. Week could go to stunt Yeah, stop tracking us now. That's a crazy thing anyways. Now, I got ya
Unknown Speaker 13:08
hear about wording or are we having a conversation? About the message as you start to get related? So here's the thing, for example, I noticed that what you put on the board today was banned surveillance capitalism. Yes. Yesterday the phrase was in surveillance capitalism is a very new different. Something wasn't banned. Posters comes in, in the back of the
Chris Heuer 13:38
Yes, it's very important, but that again, is the iterative stuff that we're in the midst of. So there is no winning candidate. So it'd be
Unknown Speaker 13:45
good to articulate and agree on what to do. What do we want the government to do something or do we want the people to take action? Well, because that's the core of what is
Unknown Speaker 13:57
calling for action. That's it. That's exactly are people doing action? Both so action is that we
Unknown Speaker 14:08
we want to move in here. Okay. And movements or fires to get started? Really, you know, that's and that's the tough part of a message but not everybody's gonna want to get the message I mean, if somebody's timing do not track was a great idea in its time. And it didn't take because the power power restriction was a red light up right. And yeah, go ahead. Are you telling me to wrap up?
Unknown Speaker 14:44
Well, yeah, go ahead, finish. Okay. This gentleman has an excellent word for writing muscles. I think you should tell us what it was.
Unknown Speaker 14:51
Well, I just wanted to throw out and I mentioned this to Chris earlier that part of being in a movement is you know, we want the parade. We want the Earth Day. We want the you know, the everybody rising up and demonstrating. There are lots of signs in that parade. And they may be you know, narrower or wider and not everyone you know, some of them might conflict with each other. And it might be a useful exercise for us that I was sort of starting and I don't know your name. Just, you know, jumped up and participated in but keep my data. You know, it's just like trying to take down the things that people I've heard people say and add some things that have crossed my mind. And that might be something that we could do on signal or in a sheriff doc or something. Or, as I hear things, I'll put them down here. But let's think about the signs in the parade and not worry about which one of them is going to be at the head of the parade. Yeah.
Chris Heuer 15:49
Yeah. Oh, brilliant. I again, I'm so glad you brought that up this morning because this thank you because it also in the context of Clive's conversation, and what I was really getting at is that we'd like it to have room for all of the people even though they care about different nuances of it, whether it's a tracking, whether it's, you know, the harm that's created to certain classes, or certain section of society, whatever it means that all of those people with all the signs should be coming behind it. So the question is, let's bubble up. What are all those people saying the
Unknown Speaker 16:22
constellation of concerns.
Chris Heuer 16:24
Thank you. Yes, beautiful.
Unknown Speaker 16:29
Because I came a little bit late, but this notion of banning fracking or ending it creates some somewhat skewed what we actually want because there's a lot of use cases and things were I want that I tried to read about advertisement because it's a useful tool to write about a new book because they know I liked it. So this is a term that came out in the last rebooting web of trust and Chris Brown's group. Instead of selective disclosure, they came up with the term selective correlation, which is trying to imply the same thing. We're just you have the power to choose the correlation that you want as the individual.
Chris Heuer 17:10
Well, it's personal choice, data and control. And so I mean, but that becomes a very complicated time. So tell me what you're saying would be that you would hang up if we were marching down the parade. For selective correlation, select and correlation now.
Unknown Speaker 17:29
Yeah. Let me let me do to decide about my body let me choose my
Chris Heuer 17:36
term. So what I love is just popcorn on what you know, what might the signs you see in
Unknown Speaker 17:42
March that's the right streaming Yes, I'm
Chris Heuer 17:45
totally with you. It's not about this was right this is whatever how I like it's what are the signs because you're gonna raise your concerns and the stuff that you're thinking about? So did you say one my data my choice my data my choice my filter pissing people off with that but yeah,
Unknown Speaker 18:04
yeah, my attention my filters is deep
Chris Heuer 18:06
my attention my filters I liked it. That's really good. Good. Oh, what else my
Unknown Speaker 18:17
data responsibility instead of data rights.
Chris Heuer 18:23
And responsibilities. Well, then again, you know, with great power comes great responsibility. Respect my respect. Yeah, respect my data, respect my data. Not respect my thought. I did a very bad Carlton.
Unknown Speaker 18:42
South Park,
Chris Heuer 18:43
yes. Yes, yes.
Unknown Speaker 18:45
One of the things that we were talking about this morning on the on the way in was you know, I am on this privacy group of all these civil service, civil civil service or civil liberties. No, you know, you know, civil society organizations, and, and so this morning, the one from Georgetown Law put up a petition and it was in support of an FTC action that was is around apps for kids that keep them engaged for just keeping them engaged. And, and it and they pointed to a New York Times article about it, and then to this letter that they're writing and all these civil society groups have signed on to and this there's a petition every three days from another one of these groups. And I thought, you know, what they need is they actually need this group. They actually need the public protest that they because there's a lot of civil society groups that have spent money that has volunteered that has donated money to work on these problems, but they're deep in the policy walks and doing the public, you know, comment period and tracking the legislation, which is great, fabulous work, but they need the cover of the big public movement. And so that's why I'm arguing for something that is very simplistic so that they can go to and go see, you know, understood, stop, stop tracking, stop, you know, stop surveillance cap, whatever the whatever the thing is, is so that and that's why back to the change.org thing is I want to be able to point this group to that and say, you know, sign up because they have the power to be able to sign on to it
Chris Heuer 20:45
understood. Let's focus on trying to get what are the sentiments and sayings and how so what would that proposal Did you read it or do you don't get a chance to read it? Joyce was the one that you saw this morning come through civil society.
Unknown Speaker 21:00
No, no, it's it's just a please sign on to our request for comment about this FTC action. That's all I'm saying is what we want is we want to create the change that or that gives the front end and the public you know, the protests, they're not doing protests, we're policy.
Unknown Speaker 21:20
Just want to follow up on the on the slogan, let's call it Kimiko was the slogan.
Chris Heuer 21:25
The slogan call it the slogan
Unknown Speaker 21:27
has to have meet certain requirements. And there are some of the things that are being mentioned here are better at some meeting some of the requirements than others and I just have three dimensions here appropriateness for the March, put an assign accuracy, which is I think some people were arguing this is not your accuracy, specific specificity, and then inclusiveness, so we can aggregate a lot of people, maybe other dimensions to this, but when you propose things in that list, think of how well the proposal has been used to
Chris Heuer 21:57
measure this wonderful decision making tool. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 22:02
One of the really interesting things that's been coming out of what was meted be Alliance, which really has been taking a look at the idea of respectful technologies and really fighting for the idea of privacy and data protection and all that. What was very interesting that came out of it is that realistically, what what seemed to be happening is we're not struggling to establish what we're not fighting for privacy as much as we're fighting for safety. Privacy is a portion of safety. And so I'm just saying this in terms of how the tonality can comes in our communication. Safety is a state, it's a state of being, and there are things that contribute to supporting that state of wellness. So safety is a key thing. Privacy not being tracked, for God's sakes that accreditation, man, things like that. So if we can include and surface safety as a high level thing, a lot of people will recognize that that that'll be familiar. And then they'll say, oh, like I see. So the privacy stuff protects my safety like usually they're just thinking, Oh,
Chris Heuer 23:06
I know understood. That makes sense. And in fact, that leading me to see the TV commercial, being about predators. And no, just like about like predators in the neighborhood, who's that person or whatever else? The Stalker the other stuff, you know, who are your who are the online predators tracking you? You can't even see them most times. Right. And, but that's a good point on that
Unknown Speaker 23:33
really? offers safety.
Chris Heuer 23:35
Yeah. So what would your design be for that? Because I really think that this exercise and how do we say it, as opposed to how do we label it is probably more robust. So we should i What I'd like to see Michael, do you have any other suggestions for how you want to kind of did it I would like to just keep everyone focused and no more other side comments. So
Unknown Speaker 23:58
I'm hoping that this is a sort of, not to put on the word safety but a safety valve for us because we all have ideas and, and, you know, some of us think this should be the overarching banner idea. And some of us just like this should be an idea in there. And if we keep doing this and you know, we keep doing it online, and you know, something's gonna come out that everybody's gonna go Oh, wow. Yeah, that's one Yeah. And you know, and then none of them are useless. All of them can be buttons and T shirts and bumper stickers and meds and that this is a movement.
Chris Heuer 24:36
And in fact, one of the things out of this is that, you know, we can look through the list and magnify it and see which ones are actually getting picked up and that other people come up with and derivatives that come from those. But the idea here again, is we want to speak in our human voice out of this as well and I'd say that's the other component of it.
Unknown Speaker 24:55
And I don't mean, you know, I don't think we should turn the focus of the meeting to this more like I just wanted to do this while we're having a discussion. So as I'm hearing, you know, okay, safety, you know, that should be up here and you know, everybody's saying everything, so
Chris Heuer 25:13
Well let me ask for this. And let me do this because I'm gonna pull off everyone in residence. So first of all, before one, but let's, so we don't have any we got 20 minutes. We got 20 minutes. So what I'd like to do here is actually while we're together, see what we can come up with together, and let's not get into the psychological components again, but what what is it that is your concern about this and what would somebody say to reflect the peril or the pleasure? One way or the other?
Unknown Speaker 25:53
You're concerned about this, this,
Chris Heuer 25:55
about this broad umbrella things about surveillance, capitalism, about tracking, about privacy, about, you know, sovereignty, all of this stuff, you know, so what would you put on here? What would you put on us? I'm going to a march
Unknown Speaker 26:12
to give back my data, and don't manipulate my children, something like that.
Chris Heuer 26:18
Give back my data. Don't manipulate my children. Perfect. Yeah, by the way, anyone else go to the march to restore sanity with Jon Stewart. Like those are the times that really came to mind when I was thinking about it. I don't think we can be as clever as all those but if we can be clever, even better, ya know? But there's some of those people that also stormed the capital on January 6. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Funny when they're not being serious when they're seriously not funny anymore. There's a lot of tea party jokes on it as I look to the signs, but I want to track what I want. That's good. That's good.
Unknown Speaker 27:01
Like, after we're done with all of these should we, you know, maybe do some kind of poll online or something. But
Chris Heuer 27:08
let's not worry about that process. Right now. We need to be in a generative mode right now. Because again, there's just so many different things and think about dark whispered band. I mean, this one I'm like yes, that's exactly the outcome because we're not going to end it but we need to ban it, because we need the regulator's to do it.
Unknown Speaker 27:24
It's the policy solution understood me, which we may never get. What we want to make it impossible for us to be stopped Yep. I mean, to me that the simplest one is no stocking. So whenever somebody understands that they think it's
Unknown Speaker 27:43
one of the resource, who's the enemy?
Chris Heuer 27:47
Yes, who work for our data. Center. You think that's hard to attack? It's fair, it's
Unknown Speaker 27:57
everybody's picked up on preferably sequentially
Unknown Speaker 28:02
visualized who our enemies are. I like that.
Unknown Speaker 28:05
And summarize them in one or two words. Don't miss the negatives.
Unknown Speaker 28:12
Well, to me is a tough word. You're going to create opposition from the get go what is our concern? That'd be a different way to phrase.
Chris Heuer 28:19
This is just for us as an exercise. It's not about what we're putting in the world.
Unknown Speaker 28:23
When you say the person empty is the people who are working towards a goal. That's the opposite of the goal that we have here, meanwhile, isn't out of
Unknown Speaker 28:32
date tech and talk to your government. And they dance together all the time. Only thing that stops it is China. So
Unknown Speaker 28:45
can we send automize data brokers with advertisers or is that too far? not correlated.
Unknown Speaker 28:51
That's a different subject when we should get into to get some answers on that question first. No, no because advertisers advertisers.
Unknown Speaker 28:58
Yeah, I think that's my opinion. Advertisers are also victims of this system, that legitimate advertisers are, are stuck in this downward spiral, you know, in many ways of their own making, like I don't understand technology. So I'm just going to give it off to this third party that it's going to create do RTB and all of that but yeah, I mean, it's it. Big Tech has now has such huge profit margin from doing surveillance capitalism. That's what causes the fraud. That's what causes the divisive pneus that because it's all about keeping the engagement and keeping the engagement is, is whipped by you know, emotional. So we
Unknown Speaker 29:46
have two answers here to hypothesis. One of them is an enumerated set of companies or organizations that are in this category. And you are blaming a system. Yeah, these are very different answers. You know, track in the slogans are well here are some of them are not done, but that's the other ones the other. I think the enemies the system. Yeah. So which is why I relate to band surveillance capitalism much more than make these companies do
Chris Heuer 30:14
X ray. I agree. And the other thing just to be clear, is all of us could be petitions. Specifically, but the point being is like any of them can be a petition, and we can all do it. And one of the things I think, again, coming back to your array of inclusiveness is again to just go off and start promoting people who share the ideals instead of trying to recruit
Unknown Speaker 30:35
anyone battlecry the one slogan Yeah, under which everything happens, right? Because otherwise we can talk about what would you like to help us?
Chris Heuer 30:45
See, I've got to just say personally, in looking at it so far, I felt that you know, and then whatever, we'll figure that out. Surveillance capitalism can work for this, because it's one of the many elements of it and the people that are in the other movements know what that means. And so that it helps amplify what they're trying to accomplish. So they would be signatories. So it's
Unknown Speaker 31:07
the message is there is a system that is not working for us. Right underneath of which there's all sorts of companies and processes and business models and activities. Yes, they all say that I support a system like this, each of which is objectionable, each of those things objective one or two, but the overarching message is a system. Yes. So that's what I would propose.
Chris Heuer 31:28
Yeah, well, does anyone have a counter to that? Because I think that is fair.
Unknown Speaker 31:32
Now. We're back to stop surveillance capitalism if you Yeah, I mean, that's I like the idea that it's a system because I don't think you can call out just yet individual actor channels like oh, it's Facebook works and apples worked and whatever. It's a big tech is benefiting from from all of this, but it is the whole system.
Chris Heuer 31:53
So it's not all the big tech and some of the big tech doesn't do it. And so that's kind of casting people in
Unknown Speaker 32:01
that part of it. I be Yeah, I envy as
Chris Heuer 32:06
well. We also have W three C as an enemy, but that's a different compensation.
Unknown Speaker 32:09
But if you're looking for a slogan, it's hard to get people to attack a system rather than a company. So we hate you on Monday. We're just gonna jump a mastodon. We're gonna go back to Facebook. We're gonna go tick tock, but we're gonna get off Twitter. The whole system is rigged against us to take our data to us wherever. But I'm going to selectively choose Twitter as the one I hate. Which is why I'm advertising. We were talking in this transgender one before. How tick tock will assign you a gender in the advertising section. You have to decline it or make up your own and this is going to this idea of like these companies, big data's, or whatever it is surveillance is surveilling you sharing with your life firemen designating your preference. That's easier to say like, don't tell me what I like. I'm in control of that. And it's a company doing it but if we do a system because everyone's really doing it you we as a group cannot attack that we I don't think you would get enough people to understand what's happening.
Unknown Speaker 33:06
I think what we need for our purposes and insiders who understand us to have a slogan that action unites us, and then their specific campaigns underneath where it says tomorrow, we're going to read in from a Facebook headquarters and complain about this particular Facebook related issue and to the day after in front of whatever their specific needs are, but there's an overarching banner that may never actually end up on the majority of the banners on the screen. But it's the rallying cry for the people who want to help them understand how this thing works. But
Unknown Speaker 33:40
a little man is not the strategic bandits.
Unknown Speaker 33:42
Exactly. So I propose that we stick with the end surveillance capitalism as a strategic slogan, which would be glugs. Tactically, what seems to be convenient to do prespore
Unknown Speaker 33:55
That's my inclination as well.
Chris Heuer 34:00
Okay, but and the simple thing about making it the end and not getting into the regulatory nuance or the rest, I'm good with that. Let's do that. Can we do that
Unknown Speaker 34:10
because it has this assassin industry connotation. I was just gonna say it is very much a power to the people
Unknown Speaker 34:16
it's a call from the street usually the street rises up to end things it's not the end
Unknown Speaker 34:21
because it means you government you ended you companies you ended
Chris Heuer 34:26
Yeah, whoever exactly that's inclusive. It really hits. What is it? Escape escape. Oh. That's really good, Robert. I liked that. Oh, what do you mean? What's the logo? The logo is the Escape key. Ah.
See we got to open up to creativity first
No no, I was trying to do stuff. You know, it's
Unknown Speaker 35:15
really cool. Actually, I didn't understand Stein until I saw it up here. Oh, yes. See the letters?
Unknown Speaker 35:23
Yes. Those at the local campaign. Look
Unknown Speaker 35:29
at the computer, make sure it looks right. Yeah. I mean,
Unknown Speaker 35:35
whenever I still have Boston, that computer history museum had a t shirt which I had for a long time. And it's had an ESC. Key on there. And it says, I keep pushing the Escape key and I'm still here. Oh, you're
Chris Heuer 35:47
kidding. I keep pushing the Escape key and I'm still
Unknown Speaker 35:53
great t shirt for the movement.
Chris Heuer 35:55
Well, I wish it could be escaped surveillance capitalism. But yeah, that's that exactly what we're talking about. Well, it is but but just
Unknown Speaker 36:07
in front of the banner in front of the strategic
Unknown Speaker 36:11
I like big E's and big S what
Chris Heuer 36:17
you'll hear is you're thinking structurally. I would love your assistance. What should we do? I don't know what I would like what I would like to do. I got you just one second. What I would like to do here is actually focus the rest of our time then on some functional things that we need to do. But before I do that Trent lasts.
Unknown Speaker 36:37
As long as we have a list of things that we will be asking for us. And hey, if they did this, they would be at the gold board. We've been turned over this nice summary. Would you say?
Chris Heuer 36:50
So? Do we want to identify key objectives that we're actually trying to accomplish? As opposed to the broad slogan, you think that would be the next sort of element? So what would be an objective? Yeah, what are you asking for? Yeah. How would it change the system? Well, I think we have a lot of them up there. But
Unknown Speaker 37:12
we need some kind of roadmap of some kind. And that is to the users were extremely likely. So currently, we now seem to have agreed on a slogan that works. The overall thing? Yes. And so two to three weeks that's who to talk to what to do. Who is gets gets to move forward? Because they have time and push things forward? How much does the group need to be involved in things like that? Some some rough consensus around that. So people know what's going to happen, you know, for example, personally, and I don't want to take too much of my own time in this because I'm overloaded. But for example, one of the things would be call up the top doesn't civil returning something rights organization and save us thinking of doing this? What do you think?
Unknown Speaker 37:57
Well, like I said, we I am on this list of these four
Unknown Speaker 38:00
desires, but I'm not saying that it can be done. I'm saying we have to have some agreement that this is the next thing as opposed to the thing after that. So give us a logical sequence of things
Unknown Speaker 38:11
in the series to from the majority to those
Unknown Speaker 38:14
and somebody needs to be specialized, probably you because you volunteer needs to be
Unknown Speaker 38:20
voluntold.
Unknown Speaker 38:24
So along the lines, for example, we want to do you know, the idea is that maybe we're going to do a change.org petition. But first we want to do this or give someone some kind of logical sequence to this, but people by and large, unlike what happened today, where you sort of had an idea what should happen and nobody else seems to be on the same page. Not criticism, I'm just observing. We have a lot of cats here. Yeah. Okay. And you're extremely hard to hurt and I said would recommend that all of us cats notice that we have been cast in the past and that is very unfair to the organism.
Chris Heuer 38:57
Yeah, well, again, this is this is a nuance of having intellectual conversations with integrity. Because Because we believe that the word the particularly words or whatever we have are the words, but what we know is that they're all magic. And we just need to keep casting spells and we'll get there
Unknown Speaker 39:18
is also a war and that war cannot be
Chris Heuer 39:21
run that way. No, no, there needs to be some kind. Well, again, that's why I like sociocracy with lead links, and somebody has to be a tiebreaker at the end of it, but there's a sort of divergence before the convergence. And so we did that and we came back together. We ended there. So to be what is next. What I'm wondering is, you know, should it be like I suggested yesterday that we have everyone kind of write different drafts of it, and submit drafts who would be willing to write a quick draft of a change that I'd Oregon's minute that's the one but a version of one so that we can consider it. Just
Unknown Speaker 39:56
a variation of this. Please feel vulnerable. Where is the current
Chris Heuer 40:01
session notes from yesterday? Yes, yeah, it's a Google Doc. Okay, not on your mobile phone.
Unknown Speaker 40:11
Instead of doing this, that people request changes or make changes on teachers to this document, we've got to have one baseline. Okay. Nobody is going to sit down and write all these documents from scratch anyway, right. So incremental changes here. Maybe you can be structured in a way there is a bottomless section. of open questions. You can go on major complaints versus in our online settings. And then you basically run this document that everybody will talk to, okay, and say, This is what we thinking, what do you think? And at the end of this process, where everybody has been explicitly invited to comment and has either done this or not, then everybody actually knows that that the hurt, right? That's really the point. And that process can be you know, it could be a four week process or some such thing. But that is for weeks or months just getting getting a feedback on a document is a coalition building
Chris Heuer 41:06
a buy in and you're exactly right. And so my concern is we're going to end up having 1200 more cats out of those 12 organizations, and in and we're never gonna get the consensus because they feel their issue isn't representative properly in the umbrella. So the other idea we had, if it was the idea that we would just do something that would be inclusive of it and promote them as one of the organizations it's doing good work to, to move in this direction, because otherwise it's but it's the holidays. If we don't get it done, like tomorrow, it's not getting done till January or February.
Unknown Speaker 41:46
So so just to be clear, I didn't actually mean suggested exactly what you were working with what you just did, I didn't mean to say there has to be those if everybody only run this by themselves. This is what we are thinking of doing. Help us make it better. What we are doing. And then they can decide whether they put themselves into the sandbox, or they're just being friends with the family and say, hey, you know, I'll give you some friendly advice here. And maybe there's meshes with this over here. Not not not consensus, I'm okay. And run overboard by consensus.
Chris Heuer 42:14
So, the other things that I've found over the years and this is from the beginning in all this stuff. There's just great power in doing something. It's not like, Hey, I'm thinking about doing something. Will you join me? No, it's worth doing this. And even in sales. I do that in sales now too. And I haven't built something like vaporware, right? No no, I did this thing and we, but
Unknown Speaker 42:40
I would, I would say that this kind of effort that is all about human connections. That doesn't work as well as for sales.
Chris Heuer 42:51
So I still believe that it doesn't need to be more than a sentence or so at this point. In terms of getting this out. It's probably better in that way. And then having that out. There could be that sort of process and say, Well, this is our first petition to see if we can get to move it because again, just like with with LinkedIn, so first one, we got it let's let's do it. Let's just get some momentum out. And if it only ends up with 5000 signatories or three, that's what it is.
Unknown Speaker 43:23
I wanted to so because of the Escape key, which I think is kind of cool. And I noticed that just so beautiful, really works hard skills. Like if you if you if you do like the SVG or like the graphic version, I will I will send everybody a pack of 20 stickers of that
Unknown Speaker 43:46
like I volunteered to do that.
Unknown Speaker 43:48
Okay. Everybody take a photo. Take a photo of this thing and tweet it today. Yeah, everywhere. Not Not many.
Chris Heuer 43:59
Do you mean the list?
Unknown Speaker 44:00
I'll do it. I'll
Chris Heuer 44:01
do a cleaner version of it. That's a good idea. The T shirts, and hashtag in surveillance capitalism.
Unknown Speaker 44:13
Just for our friends whose accounts like what are they up to this stuff? This is all this Yeah.
Chris Heuer 44:18
Yeah. The intent is to make it all hit. intent is to make it visible. And then in that way when people find us yes, it's
just to the to the full thing. I wonder what no no do the whole thing in surveillance capitalism just make it a long one. Again, it's not intended to be the killer slogan that wins of all it's let's get the conversation started. Are we still using signals that are used? Right now we are because we because we're there's no better alternatives yet.
Unknown Speaker 45:00
Okay, possibly, but
Chris Heuer 45:01
everyone's on. It's always a tension, Jeff. I'm sorry. I really I agree. I agree. But if without another solution that everyone can I've never heard of that. And now I've got 12 friggin messaging apps and looking
Unknown Speaker 45:18
into it. For it's close to it intends to I'm just hopeful. There's something better um, it can be more directly.
Chris Heuer 45:25
Understood.
Unknown Speaker 45:27
Understood. Robert has a very, very good observation.
Chris Heuer 45:30
Yes, Robert. You're asking me to repeat what you've just shared.
Unknown Speaker 45:39
She just called it escape. Sort of. Yeah, I almost wrote that. So instead of n we just need to be prepared for that or maybe.
Chris Heuer 45:47
So the reason why not to do it is because Because yeah, no, I get that and I thought of that as well. But I have to do it yourself. Yes. We're gonna go and the action we want is to escape the escape to escape the system is Neo escape. The system is now yeah, that's how you escaped the system that way. And that's a perilous journey.
Unknown Speaker 46:17
To stay in. It just ended.
Chris Heuer 46:20
Though, we gotta beat it from the inside, and we're gonna be relying on people killing it from the inside or else it won't work. There's also an element of coming together with them and like find that ground where we can actually serve humans again. Go ahead, Michael. I'm sorry.
Unknown Speaker 46:35
I was just gonna say that, you know, that and surveillance capitalism. Capitalism would be a tough thing for us as the market to do with that, absent legislation and escaping it is, you know, something that we're all individually in control
Unknown Speaker 46:54
of escape. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 46:55
I mean, there's autonomy there. I'm not saying we should we should change the words but you know, but I mean, I think we can we can talk to like any better. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Again, better.
Unknown Speaker 47:09
See, implies escape. Yeah. Cool. Double meaning I love the t shirt. The T shirt is
Unknown Speaker 47:17
great. All right.
Chris Heuer 47:18
Well, it all started with a great t shirt. It happened to happen to my sticker my sticker was everywhere. I mean, it was just a t shirt. So when the logo is when you give it to me she's gonna Oh, you can do multiple pleats. Oh. Okay. So there's one thing actually comes to me about this when we're starting to look at the meta issue and measuring and determining which is that we're defining our objective, that our first objective is to actually start something that can actually help to coalesce the broader activist within the movement, as opposed to trying to get an opt out day where you kill your Twitter profile and delete your data. So all that stuff gets set aside and this first action is the coalescing of the supporters as a broader movement.
That's what the petition and that does.
Unknown Speaker 48:26
The audience needs additional public. Yeah, absolutely. And that that's good, but I think it would work better. If the ground records are here for a public Alright, it will right so I might just be the one to be to talk to all our friends are supposed to be. We gotta go out there now. So that they will have a conversation with their friends and by the time the petition hits, they already know enough people know that. You don't want to have a petition that falls out that nobody has any idea
Chris Heuer 48:57
why so here's what I think we can do on that to make that very easily. We could, well you know, whatever technology does matter, but just create a form a survey and ask why should we end surveillance capitalism so we can get out kind of that harmless that we talked about, and ask our friends to just submit? Anyone we know who knows this? Why should we do it?
Unknown Speaker 49:21
I think I would say that we have the facts. So I would invest in people relationships, collecting facts. So the survey, collect facts.
Chris Heuer 49:36
Well know the survey collects stories of individuals that will have to be heard.
Unknown Speaker 49:42
So we could off the top of my head what I would suggest is have a weekly or something. Yeah, call call. We need to call. Yeah. We need to set up. A combination of each call is that people commit to accomplish something between this call and the next call, including I'm going to call up my friend at EFF and tell him about this. Or the EFF
Chris Heuer 50:13
or whoever. Whatever. Okay, I
Unknown Speaker 50:17
want to let everybody know that Roger is going to come straight from the airport. He won't get here till four o'clock. So we can come back in here after closing circle and
Chris Heuer 50:26
Oh, cool. Okay, cool. Cool. Very cool. Thank you. Thank you. Four o'clock. Perfect. Thank you, Joyce. Yeah, that was great.
