Difference between revisions of "An Introducing to IndieWeb"

From IIW
Jump to: navigation, search
(n)
 
 
Line 18: Line 18:
  
 
we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data
 
we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data
 +
  
 
facebook is a fantastic proof of concept of a social network, but they take control away from you
 
facebook is a fantastic proof of concept of a social network, but they take control away from you
 +
  
 
#indieweb is about having your own space on the web - your own domain as your primary identity
 
#indieweb is about having your own space on the web - your own domain as your primary identity
 +
  
 
the #indieweb goal is for you not to lose anything by not being in the silos, by connecting to them
 
the #indieweb goal is for you not to lose anything by not being in the silos, by connecting to them
 +
  
 
I haven't posted directly to facebook or twitter for a year, I post to my site and share to them instead
 
I haven't posted directly to facebook or twitter for a year, I post to my site and share to them instead
 +
  
 
the #indieweb community practices what we preach - we build for our own sites not making standards for other people
 
the #indieweb community practices what we preach - we build for our own sites not making standards for other people
 +
  
 
there are lots of small building blocks that we use to build the #indieweb - microformats are how we add meaning to web pages
 
there are lots of small building blocks that we use to build the #indieweb - microformats are how we add meaning to web pages
 +
  
 
another building block is webmentions http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention that tell sites when you have linked to them
 
another building block is webmentions http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention that tell sites when you have linked to them
 +
  
 
by using these buliding blocks we can have likes, retweets, replies, and RSVPs on our own #indieweb sites
 
by using these buliding blocks we can have likes, retweets, replies, and RSVPs on our own #indieweb sites
  
currently this is mostly about publicly visible data, but we add authentication with indieauth.com
+
 
 +
currently this is mostly about publicly visible data, but we add authentication with [http://www.indieauth.com indieauth.com]
 +
 
  
 
we are not trying to establish a huge standards organisation, but instead a community of people who implement and discuss
 
we are not trying to establish a huge standards organisation, but instead a community of people who implement and discuss
 +
  
 
how many people have their own websites? [most] how many post regularly [fewer]
 
how many people have their own websites? [most] how many post regularly [fewer]
 +
  
 
[http://www.aheadrobot.com Stefan Magdalinski]:
 
[http://www.aheadrobot.com Stefan Magdalinski]:
 +
  
 
does posting once a year count as regularly?
 
does posting once a year count as regularly?
 +
  
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com/ Aaron Parecki]:
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com/ Aaron Parecki]:
 +
  
 
twitter can be almost to easy - you need an interface that is as easy to us as twitter for your own site
 
twitter can be almost to easy - you need an interface that is as easy to us as twitter for your own site
 +
  
 
there is an opportunity for "twitter apps" for your own site - use other people's apps to post to your own #indieweb site
 
there is an opportunity for "twitter apps" for your own site - use other people's apps to post to your own #indieweb site
 +
  
 
[http://www.kevinmarks.com Kevin Marks]:
 
[http://www.kevinmarks.com Kevin Marks]:
 +
  
 
shows off noterlive, which is a way to post these kind of live tweets and keep them for posting on my own site
 
shows off noterlive, which is a way to post these kind of live tweets and keep them for posting on my own site
 +
  
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
  
@aaronpk has posted a photo on his site - I can reply to that using idno's firefox plugin and it shows on my site
 
  
I can also reply to @kevinmarks's tweet using the Firefox plugin, and it posts on my site and shares it to twitter too
+
[https://www.twitter.com/aaronpk @aaronpk] has posted a photo on his site - I can reply to that using idno's firefox plugin and it shows on my site
 +
 
 +
I can also reply to [https://www.twitter.com/kevinmarks @kevinmarks]'s tweet using the Firefox plugin, and it posts on my site and shares it to twitter too
 +
 
  
 
There's an event tomorrow night in SF called Homebrew Website Club - I can RSVP to that on my site + share to Facebook
 
There's an event tomorrow night in SF called Homebrew Website Club - I can RSVP to that on my site + share to Facebook
 +
  
 
creating the twitter and facebook integrations for idno too about an hour and a half each
 
creating the twitter and facebook integrations for idno too about an hour and a half each
 +
  
 
I'd love to create a way to upload HTML5 games and post them to your site and send highscores by webmentions
 
I'd love to create a way to upload HTML5 games and post them to your site and send highscores by webmentions
  
it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wikihttp://indiewebcamp.com- all are welcome
+
 
 +
it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wiki http://indiewebcamp.com- all are welcome
 +
 
  
 
other sites could shut down apis, but at least you don't lose your own posts when that happens
 
other sites could shut down apis, but at least you don't lose your own posts when that happens
 +
  
 
with silo'd sites there is na ethnocentric design as they're all made here in SF - indieweb is less SV dominated
 
with silo'd sites there is na ethnocentric design as they're all made here in SF - indieweb is less SV dominated
 +
  
 
[http://www.aheadrobot.com Stefan Magdalinski]:
 
[http://www.aheadrobot.com Stefan Magdalinski]:
 +
  
 
this is interesting from a hacker perspective, but how big can it go? this blogging will never catch on
 
this is interesting from a hacker perspective, but how big can it go? this blogging will never catch on
 +
  
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com Aaron Parecki]:
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com Aaron Parecki]:
 +
  
 
there is a page on the wiki for wider adoption: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (there's a page for everything)
 
there is a page on the wiki for wider adoption: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (there's a page for everything)
 +
  
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
 +
  
 
we're more likely to get to mainstream by iterating on working code and consensus
 
we're more likely to get to mainstream by iterating on working code and consensus
 +
  
 
[http://www.aheadrobot.com Stefan Magdalinski]:
 
[http://www.aheadrobot.com Stefan Magdalinski]:
 +
  
 
I've run lots of my servers at home (and fax machines) -what happens when they're all botnets?
 
I've run lots of my servers at home (and fax machines) -what happens when they're all botnets?
 +
  
 
[http://www.kevinmarks.com Kevin Marks]:
 
[http://www.kevinmarks.com Kevin Marks]:
 +
  
 
not necessarily hoem servers, can be in cloud, or even static sites that can be synced
 
not necessarily hoem servers, can be in cloud, or even static sites that can be synced
 +
  
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com Aaron Parecki]:
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com Aaron Parecki]:
 +
  
 
there are ways that we can do this with a wholly static site and services that build the communication parts
 
there are ways that we can do this with a wholly static site and services that build the communication parts
 +
  
 
[http://www.sbw.org Steve Williams]:
 
[http://www.sbw.org Steve Williams]:
 +
  
 
the other way is to run an unhosted app that posts to a static server and have the data locally in the browser
 
the other way is to run an unhosted app that posts to a static server and have the data locally in the browser
 +
  
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
 +
  
 
one advantage of making this web-centric is that we don't have to impose any architecture on anyone else to communicate
 
one advantage of making this web-centric is that we don't have to impose any architecture on anyone else to communicate
  
how to get started? one list is at indiewebify.me
+
 
 +
how to get started? one list is at [http://indiewebify.me indiewebify.me]
 +
 
  
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com Aaron Parecki]:
 
[http://www.aaronparecki.com Aaron Parecki]:
 +
  
 
first get your own domain and put up a page that links to your existing profiles elsewhere, so you have your own space
 
first get your own domain and put up a page that links to your existing profiles elsewhere, so you have your own space
 +
  
 
[http://www.tantek.com Tantek Çelik]:
 
[http://www.tantek.com Tantek Çelik]:
 +
  
 
also look at http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started to see where to go
 
also look at http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started to see where to go
 +
  
 
[http://www.erinjorichey.com Erin Jo Richey]:
 
[http://www.erinjorichey.com Erin Jo Richey]:
 +
  
 
we're hoping by the end of the summer to have idno be a one-click install http://idno.co/
 
we're hoping by the end of the summer to have idno be a one-click install http://idno.co/
 +
  
 
the idno code is all on github at https://github.com/idno/idno tomorrow it will be called "known"
 
the idno code is all on github at https://github.com/idno/idno tomorrow it will be called "known"
 +
  
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
 
[http://www.werd.io/ Ben Werdmüller]:
 +
  
 
we're going to switch to MySQL from mongo on idno to make it run where wordpress runs
 
we're going to switch to MySQL from mongo on idno to make it run where wordpress runs
 +
  
 
we're not quite there yet to be able to deploy a dynamic site anywhere
 
we're not quite there yet to be able to deploy a dynamic site anywhere
  
do come to Homebrew Website Club meetings on wednesdays in SF, Portland, Chichago + sunnyvalehttp://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-
+
 
website-club
+
do come to Homebrew Website Club meetings on wednesdays in SF, Portland, Chichago + sunnyvale http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club
 +
 
  
 
'''Received from Ben Werdmuller:'''
 
'''Received from Ben Werdmuller:'''
 
''Notes by Aaron Parecki''
 
''Notes by Aaron Parecki''
These are permanently hosted at: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb
+
''These are permanently hosted at: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb''
  
the real promise of the web is that we can all connect and learn from each other and you're not giving up control of your data and identity selfdogfooding - get something up and running for yourself and live it. if you expect people to live by a standard or principle, live it yourself first  
+
the real promise of the web is that we can all connect and learn from each other and you're not giving up control of your data and identity [http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfooding selfdogfooding] - get something up and running for yourself and live it. if you expect people to live by a standard or principle, live it yourself first  
  
building blocks - make it easy to get started quickly  
+
[http://indiewebcamp.com/building_blocks building blocks] - make it easy to get started quickly  
* microformats - encode machine-readable data into HTML, rather than trying to create huge backend system for things  
+
* [http://indiewebcamp.com/microformats microformats] - encode machine-readable data into HTML, rather than trying to create huge backend system for things  
* webmention - has become one of the key building blocks of the indieweb - people are using this today and forgetting about the technology and actually having real site-to-site conversations  
+
* [http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention webmention] - has become one of the key building blocks of the indieweb - people are using this today and forgetting about the technology and actually having real site-to-site conversations  
  
 
Because each of the building blocks are so small, people can pick up one of them and experiment and build something that works in a day.  
 
Because each of the building blocks are so small, people can pick up one of them and experiment and build something that works in a day.  
Line 146: Line 200:
 
how many people post regularly? most - does annual count?  
 
how many people post regularly? most - does annual count?  
  
"i used to" - 'why did you stop?' - twitter, it's faster  
+
"i used to" - 'why did you stop?' - [http://indiewebcamp.com/twitter twitter], it's faster  
  
benwerd: I get to choose to syndicate to twitter and other silos  
+
benwerd: I get to choose to syndicate to twitter and other [http://indiewebcamp.com/silos silos]
  
 
aaronpk: one of the challenges is to have a user interface to post to your own site that is as easy as Twitter. Some folks have built user interfaces on their own sites as  
 
aaronpk: one of the challenges is to have a user interface to post to your own site that is as easy as Twitter. Some folks have built user interfaces on their own sites as  
 
simple as Twitter.  
 
simple as Twitter.  
  
aaronpk: not everyone wants to build their own user interface. micropub lets apps post to indieweb sites.  
+
aaronpk: not everyone wants to build their own user interface. [http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub micropub] lets apps post to indieweb sites.  
  
 
kevinmarks demonstrating noterlive  
 
kevinmarks demonstrating noterlive  
* put in a hashtag and speaker name  
+
* put in a [http://indiewebcamp.com/hashtag hashtag] and speaker name  
 
* posting to twitter, but also collecting HTML into the page  
 
* posting to twitter, but also collecting HTML into the page  
 
* when he finishes, copies the HTML to his site  
 
* when he finishes, copies the HTML to his site  
Line 165: Line 219:
 
* showing aaron's photo of this session  
 
* showing aaron's photo of this session  
 
* clicking reply button in firefox plugin for Known  
 
* clicking reply button in firefox plugin for Known  
* typing a reply, hit save  
+
* typing a [http://indiewebcamp.com/reply reply], hit save  
* posted it first as a comment on his own site  
+
* posted it first as a [http://indiewebcamp.com/comment comment] on his own site  
 
* automatically shows up at the bottom of my photo as a comment  
 
* automatically shows up at the bottom of my photo as a comment  
 
* url: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/4/iiw-indieweb  
 
* url: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/06/4/iiw-indieweb  
 
* http://werd.io/2014/great-to-see-so-many-people-here  
 
* http://werd.io/2014/great-to-see-so-many-people-here  
* demoing RSVPing to tomorrow's homebrew website club indie event  
+
* demoing [http://indiewebcamp.com/RSVP RSVPing] to tomorrow's homebrew website club indie [http://indiewebcamp.com/event event]
 
* these plugins took about an hour to build each  
 
* these plugins took about an hour to build each  
  
Line 183: Line 237:
 
Q: can the "big guys" withdraw the APIs? A: of course! but it's not like they can disable an API key and the whole indieweb goes down. but it's also useful to note that we don't necessarily need them to have indieweb conversations. also they can't turn off their own HTML.  
 
Q: can the "big guys" withdraw the APIs? A: of course! but it's not like they can disable an API key and the whole indieweb goes down. but it's also useful to note that we don't necessarily need them to have indieweb conversations. also they can't turn off their own HTML.  
  
Q: if Google+ doesn't have an API, do they even really exist?  
+
Q: if [http://indiewebcamp.com/Google%2B Google+] doesn't have an API, do they even really exist?  
  
 
... Freedom box ... from Austria ... just got back from ouishare in Paris following indieweb on the sidelines ever since FSWS one of the powerful ideas of the indieweb is that it's loosely defined, so it's easy to get going and start using building blocks  
 
... Freedom box ... from Austria ... just got back from ouishare in Paris following indieweb on the sidelines ever since FSWS one of the powerful ideas of the indieweb is that it's loosely defined, so it's easy to get going and start using building blocks  
Line 202: Line 256:
 
KevinMarks: part of the point here is to NOT just build a monoculture. https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture  
 
KevinMarks: part of the point here is to NOT just build a monoculture. https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture  
  
because we started with 6 people writing their sites in 6 different programming languages, it made monoculture way less likely to happen  
+
because we started with 6 people writing their sites in 6 different programming languages, it made  
 +
[http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture monoculture] way less likely to happen  
  
Getting Started:  
+
[http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started Getting Started]:  
 
* buy a domain  
 
* buy a domain  
 
* find space to host it  
 
* find space to host it  
Line 213: Line 268:
 
known / withknown.com (sp?)  
 
known / withknown.com (sp?)  
  
benwerd: As Kevin said, monocultures are bad. This only going to work if there are a number of platforms out there. Idno is one. p3k is another. Interesting things  
+
benwerd: As Kevin said, monocultures are bad. This only going to work if there are a number of platforms out there. Idno is one. [http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k p3k] is another. Interesting things  
with WordPress plugins. Taproot. See https://indiewebcamp.com/projects  
+
with [http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress WordPress] plugins. [http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot Taproot]. See https://indiewebcamp.com/projects  
  
If anyone is here in this area, or Portland, or Chicago, there's a Homebrew Website Club every two weeks.  
+
If anyone is here in this area, or Portland, or Chicago, there's a [http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club Homebrew Website Club] every two weeks.  
  
 
SF one is 18:30 on Wednesday:  
 
SF one is 18:30 on Wednesday:  

Latest revision as of 16:42, 9 May 2014

Session Topic: An Introduction to the INDIEWEB

Tuesday 2H

Convener: Ben Werdmuller

Notes-taker: Kevin Marks & Ben Werdmuller

Discussion notes, key understandings, outstanding questions, observations, and, if appropriate to this discussion: action items, next steps:

Find notes from this session here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb


Further Notes:

Ben Werdmüller:

we talk a lot in #indieweb about "silos" - dropbox, facebook etc who make money by locking up our data


facebook is a fantastic proof of concept of a social network, but they take control away from you


  1. indieweb is about having your own space on the web - your own domain as your primary identity


the #indieweb goal is for you not to lose anything by not being in the silos, by connecting to them


I haven't posted directly to facebook or twitter for a year, I post to my site and share to them instead


the #indieweb community practices what we preach - we build for our own sites not making standards for other people


there are lots of small building blocks that we use to build the #indieweb - microformats are how we add meaning to web pages


another building block is webmentions http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention that tell sites when you have linked to them


by using these buliding blocks we can have likes, retweets, replies, and RSVPs on our own #indieweb sites


currently this is mostly about publicly visible data, but we add authentication with indieauth.com


we are not trying to establish a huge standards organisation, but instead a community of people who implement and discuss


how many people have their own websites? [most] how many post regularly [fewer]


Stefan Magdalinski:


does posting once a year count as regularly?


Aaron Parecki:


twitter can be almost to easy - you need an interface that is as easy to us as twitter for your own site


there is an opportunity for "twitter apps" for your own site - use other people's apps to post to your own #indieweb site


Kevin Marks:


shows off noterlive, which is a way to post these kind of live tweets and keep them for posting on my own site


Ben Werdmüller:


@aaronpk has posted a photo on his site - I can reply to that using idno's firefox plugin and it shows on my site

I can also reply to @kevinmarks's tweet using the Firefox plugin, and it posts on my site and shares it to twitter too


There's an event tomorrow night in SF called Homebrew Website Club - I can RSVP to that on my site + share to Facebook


creating the twitter and facebook integrations for idno too about an hour and a half each


I'd love to create a way to upload HTML5 games and post them to your site and send highscores by webmentions


it's an open community - there's an IRC channel: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC and a wiki http://indiewebcamp.com- all are welcome


other sites could shut down apis, but at least you don't lose your own posts when that happens


with silo'd sites there is na ethnocentric design as they're all made here in SF - indieweb is less SV dominated


Stefan Magdalinski:


this is interesting from a hacker perspective, but how big can it go? this blogging will never catch on


Aaron Parecki:


there is a page on the wiki for wider adoption: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (there's a page for everything)


Ben Werdmüller:


we're more likely to get to mainstream by iterating on working code and consensus


Stefan Magdalinski:


I've run lots of my servers at home (and fax machines) -what happens when they're all botnets?


Kevin Marks:


not necessarily hoem servers, can be in cloud, or even static sites that can be synced


Aaron Parecki:


there are ways that we can do this with a wholly static site and services that build the communication parts


Steve Williams:


the other way is to run an unhosted app that posts to a static server and have the data locally in the browser


Ben Werdmüller:


one advantage of making this web-centric is that we don't have to impose any architecture on anyone else to communicate


how to get started? one list is at indiewebify.me


Aaron Parecki:


first get your own domain and put up a page that links to your existing profiles elsewhere, so you have your own space


Tantek Çelik:


also look at http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started to see where to go


Erin Jo Richey:


we're hoping by the end of the summer to have idno be a one-click install http://idno.co/


the idno code is all on github at https://github.com/idno/idno tomorrow it will be called "known"


Ben Werdmüller:


we're going to switch to MySQL from mongo on idno to make it run where wordpress runs


we're not quite there yet to be able to deploy a dynamic site anywhere


do come to Homebrew Website Club meetings on wednesdays in SF, Portland, Chichago + sunnyvale http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club


Received from Ben Werdmuller: Notes by Aaron Parecki These are permanently hosted at: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014-05-06-iiw-intro-indieweb

the real promise of the web is that we can all connect and learn from each other and you're not giving up control of your data and identity selfdogfooding - get something up and running for yourself and live it. if you expect people to live by a standard or principle, live it yourself first

building blocks - make it easy to get started quickly

  • microformats - encode machine-readable data into HTML, rather than trying to create huge backend system for things
  • webmention - has become one of the key building blocks of the indieweb - people are using this today and forgetting about the technology and actually having real site-to-site conversations

Because each of the building blocks are so small, people can pick up one of them and experiment and build something that works in a day.

how many people have their own domain name? all but 2 raised their hand [nice! -t]

how many people post regularly? most - does annual count?

"i used to" - 'why did you stop?' - twitter, it's faster

benwerd: I get to choose to syndicate to twitter and other silos

aaronpk: one of the challenges is to have a user interface to post to your own site that is as easy as Twitter. Some folks have built user interfaces on their own sites as simple as Twitter.

aaronpk: not everyone wants to build their own user interface. micropub lets apps post to indieweb sites.

kevinmarks demonstrating noterlive

  • put in a hashtag and speaker name
  • posting to twitter, but also collecting HTML into the page
  • when he finishes, copies the HTML to his site
  • wants to add micropub to automatically post the HTML to his site instead of manual copy/pate
  • this interface is *more useful* than twitter for tweeting

benwerd demoing his site

would love to find a way to post HTML5 games so indie game developers could quickly host games. high scores could be received back with webmentions.

There's the IndieWebCamp wiki and IRC channel. Everyone is welcome.

There is no mailing list: http://indiewebcamp.com/FAQ#Is_there_an_IndieWeb_mailing_list

Q: can the "big guys" withdraw the APIs? A: of course! but it's not like they can disable an API key and the whole indieweb goes down. but it's also useful to note that we don't necessarily need them to have indieweb conversations. also they can't turn off their own HTML.

Q: if Google+ doesn't have an API, do they even really exist?

... Freedom box ... from Austria ... just got back from ouishare in Paris following indieweb on the sidelines ever since FSWS one of the powerful ideas of the indieweb is that it's loosely defined, so it's easy to get going and start using building blocks

Q: this is really interesting from a hacker perspective, but how mainstream can it go?

A: aaronpk, pretty much every question has an answer on the wiki. E.g. for this, see https://indiewebcamp.com/generations - right now we're mostly a hacker community. We saw the internet go from a hacker community and go completely mainstream. This is how it starts.

A: benwerd: 10 years ago, social web, people would say what? it's not mainstream. ... We're more likely to get there by iterating on working code.

KevinMarks: one of the arguments is, how much can you push statically? a bunch of us are doing this.

Aaronpk: when your website is a pile of HTML files and you can put it on any FTP server and still communicate with other sites? You end up with using a webmention service.

[12:37] <bretttt> its key to eventually get that service data INTO the html file itself. working on that now

KevinMarks: part of the point here is to NOT just build a monoculture. https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture

because we started with 6 people writing their sites in 6 different programming languages, it made monoculture way less likely to happen

Getting Started:

  • buy a domain
  • find space to host it
  • put up a simple home page with an h-card with your name and links to other profiles

Known - currently PHP + MongoDB. going to be PHP+MySQL.

known / withknown.com (sp?)

benwerd: As Kevin said, monocultures are bad. This only going to work if there are a number of platforms out there. Idno is one. p3k is another. Interesting things with WordPress plugins. Taproot. See https://indiewebcamp.com/projects

If anyone is here in this area, or Portland, or Chicago, there's a Homebrew Website Club every two weeks.

SF one is 18:30 on Wednesday:

Portland one is usually hosted by ESRIPDX or MozPDX but not this week.

Chicago one is usually at Intelligentsia.

KevinMarks: Do we want a satellite one here in MV?

Benwerd: not looking forward to driving back in rush hour

KevinMarks: we can grab a table at the Firehouse and make that the MV HWC